Curse

Society · Jan 05, 2009, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Watched it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_jKX...eature=related
Well, just ordinary hypercube... But comments really freaked me out. Is it really so hard to imagine space with more then 3 coordinate axis ?

OK, back to topic... Can anyone advice something ?
Only games I've found so far:
http://www.gravitation3d.com/magiccube5d/ (5D Rubix)
http://www.superliminal.com/cube/cube.htm (4D Rubix)
http://www.illusions.hu/4dtris/ (4D Tetris)
http://narod.yandex.ru/shop.xhtml?si...140599&g=1&n=2 (4D Pac-Man)
http://www.mushware.com/ (4D space shooter)
http://www.softholm.com/download-software-free6471.htm (4D FPS)

JupiterStarWarrior · Jan 05, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

I don't understand... How can anything be in greater than 3D (game-wise)?

Society · Jan 05, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by JupiterStarWarrior

I don't understand... How can anything be in greater than 3D (game-wise)?

Easy. Just play one of that games i'm mentioned in first post. It's absolute doesn't matter for PC, how many perpendicular (to each other) lines can cross in one point for you game's space.

Abedeus · Jan 05, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Tried that Mushware space shooter. It's just dumb... It's just needlessly complicated 3D game, where you have two Z axises. But this is just a weak graphic effect...

Society · Jan 06, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

It's impossible to has 2 Z-axises. And talking 'bout vizualization... I'ts still better then "precious" variant.

Killed u man · Jan 07, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

You CAN'T visualize the 4th dimension as 1 object.

If you're going to visualize it, you NEED time, BUT this doesn't mine time is a property of this dimension. It's simply a tool to represent it.

As the most commonly used example:

Imagine we were to live in a 2D world. How would we see 3D objects? We can't. It's simple, we can't. No way in hell, you're ever going to visualize a 3D object in a 2D world (with accuracy, cuz that cube thingy is shit). What you need to add to visualize ANY upper dimension is TIME.

If you were to "visualize" a balloon in a 2D world, it would be an ANIMATION over a certain period of time. It would be like move a camera through the ballon, showing a "slice"-representation (a circle) that expands, and then contracts again.

You know those videos of a human brain, were they go from the back through the front, and you can see that "liar", that slice of brain. Well, that's a PERFECT representation of what our brain in 2D would look like.

Hence, imaginating a 4D object is quite hard, as you need to imagine "time" whilst keeping track of what your previously saw BUT at the same time it VERY common.

There are "4D" objects all around us, look at... US...

A human gets born, grows old, and then dies. (Disappears) In a way, we're a 4D object, moving through a 3D object (Cube, which is the "slice" in 2D representations), and eventually disappearing (dieing).

We live in 3D, we can imagine what it looks like in lower dimensions (0th = dot, 1st = line, 2nd = square, 3th = cube).

So if you want to visualize the 4th dimension, make a 3D model of something (let's say a human for arguements sake), and let it go through time. (The cube = time) Then make a 3D animation of it, and there you go, 3D representation of a 4D object.

If you wish to "visualize" it HOW IT ACTUALLY LOOKS, well, you'dd have to IMAGINE all those individual "3D models" at the SAME time (So yeah, gl doing that) AND then see the evolution instantly. (you see the INTIRE human, from birth to death simutaniously, NOT as an animation, but as a rigid, non-changing object).

Human mind can't do that, cuz gues what duuuuuuuuuuuuuur. We're 3D objects, so there is no point in bitching on how inaccurate the discription is

You can't visualize the 4Th dimension in a reasonable, and yet (game) playable way. Stick to 3D games, it's as good as it gets in this dimension.

Final note: I don't understand at all how that 4D tetris games works, tough I DOES represent the cube as a form of time, and whatever small object (tetris object) you put into it, represents a change in time. Nonetheless, it looks effed up, and not fun whatsoever...

Abedeus · Jan 07, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

In a way, we're a 4D object, moving through a 3D object

I think it's the opposite. We are 3D objects moving through a 3D worlds with a 4th dimention - time. But you are right on the target. Nailed it, I might say.

Last game with true 4D was Timeshift. You could move through time in both dimentions - forward, like normal, and backward. You can also stop it for like 4-6 seconds, but that's it. Too bad the game has such a weak plot and objectives, otherwise it would be great.

Kerwyn Nasilan · Jan 08, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Head Asplode...boom

Lord Sojar · Jan 08, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Lol.... a game attempting to conceptualize a hypershape. That is so silly.

The human brain cannot hope to realize a hypershape, much less create a game based on it. Silly developers....

pumpkin pie · Jan 08, 2009, 09:38 AM // 09:38

quick! patent that!

Society · Jan 08, 2009, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

You CAN'T visualize the 4th dimension as 1 object.

Agree... Partially. Well, You can't fully vizualize non-2d object on 2d screen in on frame. You can still do a projection, but it's won't show all properties of object. Only animation (preferably rotation) would. Still, it's not a problem for most games, where always moves at least something.

And, yes, humans are 4D objects. They just 4D in different way than hypercube (f.e.) - 3 dimensions of space, 1 measuring. Only 3 perpendicalr to each other (so you can call them axis) lines can cross at on point in human's world. Well, in terms of dimensions in general, hypercube will be 5d objects (4 dimensions of space, 1 measuring).

Quote:

I don't understand at all how that 4D tetris games works, tough I DOES represent the cube as a form of time, and whatever small object (tetris object) you put into it, represents a change in time. Nonetheless, it looks effed up, and not fun whatsoever...

Read: http://www.illusions.hu/4dtris/help.html

Quote:

Here you have to handle 4D hyper-cubes and fill 3D spaces of the "hyperwell".

Quote:

The human brain cannot hope to realize a hypershape

One more evidence, that I'm antihuman: my - can).

P.S. Well, there are space-time hypercube theories as well: http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/sr/hypercubel.html
But I'm not talking about it.

Abedeus · Jan 08, 2009, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

And, yes, humans are 4D objects.

Width, length and depth.

Where is your 4th dimention?

You might as well say that Rubik's cube on your table is 4D...

Lord Sojar · Jan 08, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Society

One more evidence, that I'm antihuman: my - can

Perception and understanding are totally different things. Your brain cannot hope to understand a hypershape, much less 4th dimension as a vector. Our brains cannot even grasp the size of the earth itself without using a map to perceive it, muchless the universe.

The Red Messenger · Jan 08, 2009, 06:18 PM // 18:18

instead of making a game out of it, a greater accomplishment would be to be able to explain it in simple terms so the average joe can know what you're talking about. i read this, played around a bit, and still have no idea what this 4d is.

what is it? like...the path of matter over a given time? i dont see how some patterns on a computer that pass through eachother is a 4th dimension

Abedeus · Jan 08, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

what is it? like...the path of matter over a given time? i dont see how some patterns on a computer that pass through eachother is a 4th dimension

This is EXACTLY why human being can never, ever have a full understanding of what's it like to live in 4D.

Same as you can't really draw a 3D cube on a piece of paper. Sure, you can draw a concept of it, how it might look. But you can't turn around the paper and check if you are right.

At least until they invent a paper that can show moving pictures. But then again, it would be just a TV screen on a piece of paper.

zwei2stein · Jan 08, 2009, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Perception and understanding are totally different things. Your brain cannot hope to understand a hypershape, much less 4th dimension as a vector. Our brains cannot even grasp the size of the earth itself without using a map to perceive it, muchless the universe.

We have great tools at our hand to handle any number of given dimensions. That includes clear mental image (not to be confused with silly cube drawings). Anyone who understands linear algebra should know. Easy thing, really. Its just that there are not futuristic wow-pictures that accompany it.

Society · Jan 09, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Width, length and depth.
Where is your 4th dimention?

Trength (read http://tetraspace.alkaline.org/glossary.htm) ?

Quote:

Your brain cannot hope to understand a hypershape, much less 4th dimension as a vector.

Emm.. Hypershape just a bunch of data in 4d dataspace array (voxel model), or bunch of 4D curves (vector model). I just can't find any non-cllear points here, really.

Quote:

instead of making a game out of it, a greater accomplishment would be to be able to explain it in simple terms so the average joe can know what you're talking about. i read this, played around a bit, and still have no idea what this 4d is.

Dim.Nuclone Space3D(#XSize, #YSize, #ZSize)
Dim.Nuclone Space4D(#XSize, #YSize, #ZSize, #WSize)
; 2 voxel-based models of universes.
; Most easy description for me.

Abedeus · Jan 10, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

And how much "trength" (lol) you have?

You can show how wide you are (of course, depending on area of body, but still).
You can show how long(tall) you are.
You can show how thin you are (same with width, depending on area)

How do you measure your trength? Not to mention, such word doesn't even exist on Wikipedia.

Society · Jan 10, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

And how much "trength" (lol) you have?

Too easy: 0. Just like any 3D object.

Quote:

How do you measure your trength?

Just like any other size: by measuring interval between 2 ends (edge points) on corresponding axis.

Abedeus · Jan 10, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Sooo wait, humans are 4D or 3D? In post #11 you said they are 4D, now you agree they are 3D.